Curse

Nigel Strange · Jan 12, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Has anyone noticed this: You use ignite arrows and dual shot to get the cluster of surrounding warriors to run away, so that when they do, you can nail them with hunter shot. I try this, but what invariably happens is the warriors TELEPORT to their new location. I assume it's one of two things:

1. A glitch in the software, caused by network slowness, which makes characters jump around.

2. Just another one of their little ways of punishing PvE players by nerfing what few skills are left that are worth having.

Let's face it: there are a LOT of skills that are only useful in PvP. Why can't they let us have a few that are marginally more useful in PvE? It's because they hate us PvE players. That's why. They're like the Stone Summit. They just hate us without reason, and whenever they see us coming, they find some new way to visit horrors upon us.

Anyone else notice this effect, or is it just me?

sun is in us · Jan 12, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Let's face it: there are a LOT of skills that are only useful in PvP.

Could you point out these skills for me?

A few skills are not useful in PVP (O's cry for example), but I didn't know the reverse was true....

Enlighten me please.

Grammar · Jan 12, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I find that it's pretty hard to get the bleeding bonus from Hunter's Shot in PvE, and even when you do get it every now and then, it's too inconsistant and infrequent to make Hunter's Shot worth it in most builds.

Several reasons:
1. PvE casters and rangers just stand there and cast/attack, they rarely move.
2. PvE warriors only move in short bursts from target to target, they mostly just stand there a hack away.
3. Even if enemies do move or get knocked down, most of the time they will have stopped moving or stood up by the time you click the skill and the arrow hits them.
4. Some PvE monsters don't bleed.

IMO, Hunter's Shot is only useful if there are a couple fire eles in your group who like to cast AOEs, or maybe a hammer warrior.
The only thing that keeps it from being total crap otherwise is the low energy cost.

Nigel Strange · Jan 12, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

Could you point out these skills for me?

A few skills are not useful in PVP (O's cry for example), but I didn't know the reverse was true....

Enlighten me please.

Well, just for Ranger, there's two I can think off the top of my head: Pin Down and Debilitating Shot. Neither of them are useful in PvE. Unless you're doing that one mission where you have to beat the White Mantle at Capture the Flag (er crystal), what good is the ability to cripple a single foe? You usually get a bunch of them, so crippling one is useless. Debilitating shot is another one. If you have 3 rangers in the group and they all use DS on the same caster, yeah, that might be good, but since there's a 10 second reload time, it's not really good enough for a ranger to prevent any spell casting at all, or at least, so far as I've noticed. Both of these, though, I could see causing grief and mischief in PvP.
Setting traps is great for monsters (and PvP) not so great when you're adventuring. You're the one always going to them, not vice versa. Usually, the traps are just a way for the monsters to get even with you after you murdered them all...there's always a barbed trap waiting for you after you finish off the last Oak thing. Since the monsters don't come for you (unless you attract their attention, in which case you can't lay a trap without being ineterrupted) what's the point? You put traps around your flag! Oh, no flags in PvE. Sorry.

Caged Fury · Jan 12, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

No, I haven't noticed the teleporting. I would say it's a network issue rather than punishment of PvE players.

I've had some success in using Ignite Arrow and Hunter's Shot to bleed foes. I do find it difficult to achieve because the foes don't scatter very far before pausing and then returning. The window of opportunity to bleed them is too small. IMO, Hunter's Shot is better used while pulling a mob that contain warriors, and easier used with Pin Down. Before aggro-ing a mob (as an example the mob contains 2 warriors), target a warrior and hit it with Pin Down. This gets their attention and they'll charge you. Hunter Shot the other warrior and bleed him. Return to the crippled warrior and Hunter Shot him.

Crippling one foe isn't useless, it provides an advantage. Rather than having, say, 3 warriors charging towards your party, you can have 2 charging and one hobbling. Fighting 2 is much easier than fighting 3. Also, DoT attacks can be applied to the crippled warrior so by the time he reaches the party he is close to death.

Debilitating Shot shouldn't be seen as a skill to stop casters from casting any spells. It's to help reduce the chance of them casting a good spell at a crucial moment. For example, you're fighting undeads that includes a Necrid Horsemen. While being beaten on, the Necrid Horsemen will be casting spells at you party which will deplete its own energy. Say your party kill a grasping ghoul, the Necrid Horsemen will more-than-likely cast Animate Bone Fiend. If you took the initative that it will on the death of the ghoul, you could use Debilitating Shot to reduce what remaining energy it may have to possibly prevent the casting.

Traps are useable in PvE. You don't always have to goto the enemies, you can make them come to you. Traps are helpful when you pull a mob. For example, you see a couple Jungle Trolls ahead of you, stop and move close enough so they're just outside your aggro circle. Set a trap. Step forward abit and shoot it with an arrow. Step back behind the trap and wait or fire more arrows (making sure you stay behind the trap). They will charge towards you in a direct line and right into the trap.

You can also use traps to setup an ambush for roaming patrols. Most patrolling enemies follow a set path. Be patient and identify the path. Pick a spot and set a trap. When they return to that spot, they'll spring the trap and the ambush can begin.

Ranger farming builds make the use of traps, and they use Throw Dirt to blind enemies to prevent them from hitting and interupting.

Just like all skills for all professions, some are useful for some foes/situation rather than for all. You just need to be more selective on targets and the opportunity.

My 2 pence.

Nigel Strange · Jan 12, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Thanks for the advice. Those all all good suggestions.

I've tried some of these things before, but never had much luck with them. If I'm playing with a human party, nobody wants to wait for me to set a trap and see if something walks into it. Monsters also show a surprising ability to see and avoid traps, even in narrow corridors.

Otherwise, I carry two interrupts: distracting and savage shots. Those usually keep the caster busy, especially distracting, since it delays for 20 seconds.

I have tried concussion shot and it does work pretty well, but the cost is too high. If you need to interrupt something and you get the arrow a split second too late, you're out so much energy and you achieved nothing.

I thought choking gas would be great...until I tried it. It seems to have no effect, or what little effect it does have only lasts about as long as it takes to cast a really big spell. It also has no effect on other, non-spell skills, like Healing Signet, which can easily be interrupted by DS.

Overall, though, since they nerfed AoE (and thus my elementalist) I've found the Ranger to be one of my favorite classes.

In any case, I see this monster teleporting happen pretty frequently, and it almost always happens when I'm trying to get a hunter shot in, whether I'm trying to hit them before they get to my fighters, running from AoE, or jumping to engage the casters. I've watched a few PvP games and I haven't seen any teleporting there, though it may be different for the players.

Lasher Dragon · Jan 12, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Traps are awesome for PvE, I use them all the time. Even without using any skill-recharge bonuses like Serpent's Quickness or Quickening Zephyr/Energizing Wind combo, I can regularly set 3 sets of traps - 3 fire, 3 barbed, and 3 dust. The key is when you pull the enemies, move away from your traps. Get the enemies all bunched up first, and then lead them to your traps - otherwise some latecomer always comes in and ruins your party, as he failed to recieve his free blindness/bleeding/crippled/burning party favors.

Also, the nerf to AoE actually helps trapper rangers - it's amusing, really. The mob comes in, gets nailed by all the traps, then attempts to run away (crippled, bleeding, blind and burning all the while) - while they are limping away in horror, plant more traps. It's a vicious cycle hehe

Grammar · Jan 13, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Traps are awesome for PvE, I use them all the time. Even without using any skill-recharge bonuses like Serpent's Quickness or Quickening Zephyr/Energizing Wind combo, I can regularly set 3 sets of traps - 3 fire, 3 barbed, and 3 dust. The key is when you pull the enemies, move away from your traps. Get the enemies all bunched up first, and then lead them to your traps - otherwise some latecomer always comes in and ruins your party, as he failed to recieve his free blindness/bleeding/crippled/burning party favors.

Great for farming, I grant you, but not that great for general PvEing (missions and quests).
Simply put: 95% of players are FAR too impatient for the process you just described, which is quite time consuming.
Good luck getting everyone to stand there and wait for you to place all your traps, then wait for the mob to bunch, then draw them into the traps.

I want to get back to Hunter's Shot though. Does anyone use this skill on a regular basis? How successful are you at getting the bleeding bonus?
The way I see it, the skill doesn't do enough damage to warrant the skill slot unless you're able to get the bleeding bonus on a consitant basis, which most of the time I am unable to do (other than when pulling the first target/s of course, but that's only 1 or 2 guys)

VGJustice · Jan 13, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Traps not good for general PvEing? Bah, I say! Bah!

Take along JUST Dust trap. If there's Melee mobs, drop that trap at their feet and watch 'em whiff to your hearts delight. Or, put it on your casters and save them from a possible missed aggro. Take along Oath Shot with a couple traps and Whirling Defense and you've got a nice and potent offensive PB Trapper.

As for Hunter's Shot, I don't use it myself, but it seems like more of a "Useful when X" kind of thing. Like, when you pull a mob, just wait till they start moving and plink 'em with Hunter's. That should trigger the Bleeding and give you some time to set something else up, or let your War get in the path and save you from the aggro. Soften them up before they get to you, rather than rely on the bleeding for damage. Just a thought.

Falconer · Jan 14, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Okay since Ensign and the others aren't posting now... time to smack some sense into people. Hunters shot sucks? It's one of the single best marksmanship attack skills in game.

One it only requires 13 expertise to get it to 2. Furthermore it's only a 5 energy attack. Three it's +dam alone is roughly 3/4 that of power shot a 10 energy attack. In fact, the +dam alone is nearly identical to penetrating attack! (instead of 20% AP it has chance of bleed for half the cost). EG: it's a much more efficient +dam skill than many in the marksmanship line. The +bleed has always been something of a bonus damage on this skill.

Two, lets say you are playing an apply poison junky and your goal is to poison the other side. If you bring 2 or 3 other bow attacks as you're cycling through targets. Hunters is an excellent one to bring. Why if you're cycling and hit a moving target you've just got yourself a 15-20s -7 degen on him with bleed + poison. Others like pin down are usable... but don't have a good recharge. And yet again you can spam hunters just for the extra +dam on top of the poison.

I used technique number 2 an awful lot while farming giants in riverside during the mythical hunting days of yore. Aggro 4 of them, keep your +speed on (i was using escape since I was running the mission til there). Keep them all tagged, and they'll all bleed to death while you run circles around them. This is the classic kiting type setup.

Lets give another one.. you're running apply poison. Why would you bring dual shot?! Poisoning the target twice won't do anything for you. Dual shot right now is overused. Unless you have some other source of bonus +dam (orders necro or the like). Dual isn't going to help you much at all. It'll cost twice as much energy for roughly the same +dam as hunters shot on the same recycle. The only big advantage it has is if the target is blocking/evading in which case there's a better chance for at least one arrow to hit. One arrow is all it takes to poison and move onto the next.

The other one is pretty basic. For lower level rangers leveling up. I've always suggested that they run expertise and wilderness survival. Only putting enough points into marksmanship to use their bow. (let your preps do the lions share of the damage). But since your expertise is low and your energy strained hunters is an excellent pick at these levels and you get it via quest right outside of lion's arch. Put simply... low level rangers and 10 energy bow attacks are PAINFULL (7, 8 or 9 energy attacks out of a 25 pool before you can get druids armor).

As far as criticism about casters and such. Would you use concussion shot on a warrior? Not all skills are equally apropos to all targets.

Yolanda Kai · Jan 14, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Hunter's, Poison Arrow and Penetrating Attack are my favorite spam skills, Barrage takes away my Elites like Escape or Poison Shot, which I'm not a fan of. Depending on what I'm doing those skills are a real awesome thing to have around. Never was a fan of Apply Poison... durations are too low and you lose the nice damage bonus of Kindle or whatever your prep of choice is.

Grammar · Jan 15, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Couple points for Falconer:

1. No question, Hunter's Shot is an outstanding skill IF you can get the bleeding bonus.

2. In no way does Hunter's Shot do as much damage as Penetrating Attack without the bleeding bonus, not even close. PA does 2 more points of damage, and penetrates 20% of armor, which is huge later in the game. Yes, PA costs double, but with Druids Armor and Expertise, energy is never a problem. PA also has a shorter recast, so you can spam it more. This faster recast time saves me a skill slot. Why add a second attack skill when I can just use one attack skill (PA) every other shot? Most people who bring Hunter's Shot also bring another attack skill on their bar, due to Hunter's longer recast time. I only have room for a single attack skill (in addition to Poison Arrow or Punishing Shot), on my interupt ranger's skill bar.

3. Now, about that bleeding bonus.... (in PvE)
I can usually get 1 or 2 guys to bleed when pulling, and then probably 1 other guy mid-battle, but that's only 3 guys. When fighting a dozen or so enemies, 3 guys is just not enough to make the lower damage and longer recast worth it. Besides, I hate looking around to see who's moving or knocked down. I'd much rather be looking around to see who's casting what (seeing as how I'm an interupter). I've tried running Hunter's and then looking for both spell/skill casting for interupts AND movement/knockdown for Hunter's, but usually when I see a guy moving, by the time I switch to him, hit Hunter's, and the arrow hits him, he would have just stopped moving. What I'm trying to say here is, 90% of the time, I'd rather hit a guy with PA inbetween my interupts and get the guarenteed higher damage, rather than take a chance on the bleeding bonus.
I guess the question is where is the threshold where Hunter's becomes worth it? For me, I think I'd have to get the bleeding bonus at least 50% of the time for it to be worth it, and that just isn't the case.
Oh, and yes, Hunter's can be great for farming, I've done that too (Poison Arrow and Hunter's while running around to make them move). But that tactic doesn't work nearly as well when doing regular PvE, because I get much less aggro (by design, of course). And when a warrior does aggro me and I run around to get him moving, he'll just find another nearby target to switch to, and then stop moving just in time before Hunter's hits him.

Maybe you guys don't need to get the bonus at least 50% of the time for it to be worth it for you, and if you're happy with what you get, more power to you. But PA fills that skill slot much better for me. If I had room, I'd take both, but I just can't bring myself to drop any of my interupt skills, my self-heal, or my rez (unless I'm farming solo, then I drop the rez for Hunter's as I mentioned before).

4. I agree with you about Dual Shot. Unless your running some combination of Kindle Arrows, JI, Conjure, Order, FW, etc., it's not worth the slot. All I run is Read the Wind, so PA is the better option for me. I agree that Dual Shot is overused.

Nigel Strange · Jan 15, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I *would* get a bleed every time I use hunter shot. The only reason I don't is because of the darn teleporting in the first post. The way it works is simple.

If I get surrounded by enemy melee artists, I use whirling defense (so I won't be interrupted), Troll Unguent (if I'm down some health) then ignite arrows. This takes a little time to set up, however, my whirlingness keeps me from dying.

Next, I shoot the closest of them with dual shot, followed quickly by distracting or savage. (I'm hoping when I post this that it won't be nerfed next just because I've had some success using it, however I don't play PvP, and that's where they watch to see which skills to nerf next.) The three arrows in a short time do enough AoE damage to cause the enemy tanks to run away! Once they start moving, I hit one with Hunter Shot. Then I use Apply Poison and start picking a few more targets.

Grammar · Jan 15, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

^^^ Yeah, then there's the "teleporting" problem to make things worse, lol.

Ignite arrows might be of some help (or any AOE fire spell for that matter), I can see your point there, but that wouldn't work in my build unfortunately. I use Read the Wind for my prep, and have no room for a fire AOE just to help me get the bleeding bonus from Hunter's Shot.

Meh, it is what it is I guess.
I wish they would change this skill from 5 energy to 10 energy, maybe lower the bonus damage a bit, then make the bleeding automatic (no movement or KO required). Kind of like a poor man's Poison Arrow, but with bleeding instead of poison.

Nigel Strange · Jan 16, 2006, 01:34 AM // 01:34

It's interesting that there are so many builds out there. It's not like you find one combination of skills that does the best job. I guess there are builds for various jobs, too, though I haven't specialized enough for that. I'm thinking: there's no mission or area that's exclusively one hazard or another, so you have to be prepared for a mixed bag of trouble, which means using the best all-around loadout for whatever you run into. The only divergence from this "best" build seems to be very minor, such as if you have to go through toxic waste, you should bring some anti-condition magic. Otherwise, mixed bag=best skill set for general practice.

Even so, it seems that there are a lot of different ideas about what works best.

Then again, some skills are obsolete now. For instance, I don't think I've ever seen anyone using Fire spells in PvP, yet that's what my (no obsolete) elementalist was using.

With rangers, some use Marksmanship, some use Wilderness Survival for damage output.

One thing, though: unless you find some synergy between your classes, it seems best to narrow down the attribute point focus to get the highest ranks in as few slots as you can.